🎧 The Future of Food with Dr. Andy Jarvis

Are you optimistic or pessimistic about our food future? Tune in this week to learn from the Director of the Future of Food at the Bezos Earth Fund about innovations in the global food system.

Nov 27, 2023

By 2050, the world needs to be able to produce enough food to feed 10 billion people. Our guest this week is Dr. Andy Jarvis, Director of the Future of Food at the Bezos Earth Fund. We discuss the challenges of sustainable agriculture in the face of an increasing global population and delve into the complexity of the food system, addressing the potential for transformative change on topics like loss and waste, nutritious diets, and innovative farming practices. We also discuss important initiatives such as the Periodic Table of Food, aimed at fundamentally advancing our understanding of food composition, and the role of the Bezos Earth Fund in driving scientific innovation in agricultural sustainability.

How can we produce good, nutritious food for 10 billion people on less land with lower emissions? - Dr. Andy Jarvis

Major takeaways from our conversation:

Changes are underway. Our rapidly evolving world is increasingly reliant on sustainable agricultural processes. However, transforming the global food system isn't a simple task. The key to navigating this transition effectively may lie in understanding and leveraging the connections between food production, consumption, human health, and planetary sustainability.
There is a vision for the future of food. Andy has been championing the transformative concept of sustainable agricultural practices for over two decades. As the Director of the Future of Food at the Bezos Earth Fund, he has had a front-row seat to the challenges and opportunities presented by the need to rethink our global food system. He delineates the Herculean task ahead: "How can we produce good, nutritious food for 10 billion people on less land with lower emissions?"
We can all make a difference through mindful eating. While large-scale projects can deliver transformational change, Andy underscores the power of individual action. He encourages mindful eating practices, advocating for waste reduction, wise protein choices, and consideration of how food is produced. He argues that the same factors that are good for one's health are typically also good for the planet and emphasizes the need to choose wisely when it comes to protein sources.
Understanding the composition our food is a promising starting point. Understanding how the composition of food changes our health and its impact on the planet can be a game-changer. The trend towards data-driven solutions prompted the creation of initiatives like the Periodic Table of Food Initiative. This program aims to advance our understanding of food compositions, equip scientists with the necessary tools, data, and training to characterize the quality of the world's edible biodiversity, and offer data-driven solutions to the health sector and wider food industry.
Innovation and technology are key. Andy highlighted that the capacity for human innovation is remarkable. The use of technology and innovation to drive improvements in food production and consumption can result in tremendous transformation in food production and improve the sustainability of the world's food systems. For example, the Bezos Earth Fund is investing in producing a collar that trains cows to move within designated areas, eliminating the need for physical fences, which is cost-effective and helps in maintaining sustainable grazing practices. The funds are also used to enlighten farmers about the best and most profitable farming practices that also yield high-quality products and are sustainable.

This podcast is sponsored by The Periodic Table of Food Initiative in association with the American Heart Association. The views and opinions in this podcast are those of the presenters and represent the synthesis of science. For more information on the Periodic Table of Food Initiative, please visit https://foodperiodictable.org/

Access the full transcript of this Foodie Pharmacology episode at the bottom of this post. This special feature is available to paid subscribers of the Nature’s Pharmacy newsletter.

About Andy

Dr. Andy Jarvis is the Director for the Future of Food at the Bezos Earth Fund. He has worked for over 20 years in research for development to support the delivery of food security and environmental sustainability in the food system. Andy joined the Bezos Earth Fund from the Alliance of Bioversity International and CIAT, a CGIAR center, where he oversaw research that spans from crop breeding and genetics to landscape management, climate adaptation and mitigation through to dietary shifts and consumer behavior. Andy holds a PhD in Geography from King’s College London, and is located in Cali, Colombia.

Listen to the interview

Listen to the podcast on any of your favorite podcast streaming services. Subscribe to Foodie Pharmacology to access new episodes weekly! If you enjoy this and other episodes, let me know! Give is a 5-star rating on Apple Podcasts so others can find it and enjoy!

Subscribe to Foodie Pharmacology

Watch the video

Available exclusively on the Teach Ethnobotany YouTube Channel, you can catch the full video version of this episode and others! Enjoy!

Yours in health, Dr. Quave

Introduction to Dr. Andy Jarvis

[00:00:56] Dr. Cassandra Quave: His name is Dr. Andy Jarvis, and he's the director of the future of food at the Bezos Earth Fund.

Andy has worked for over 20 years in research for development and support for the delivery of food security and environmental sustainability in the food system. He joined the Bezos Earth Fund from the Alliance of Bioversity International and CIAT, a CGIAR center, where he oversaw research that spans from crop breeding and genetics to landscape management, climate adaptation and mitigation through to dietary shifts and consumer behavior.

Andy holds a PhD in geography from King's College, London, and is located in Cali, Columbia. But before we begin the show, let's start with this.

About the Foodie Pharmacology Podcast

[00:01:39] Dr. Cassandra Quave: This Foodie Pharmacology podcast is part of a special series co-designed with the Periodic Table of Food Initiative, also known as the PTFI. The views and opinions in this podcast are those of the presenters and represent the synthesis of science. The PTFI is a program of RF Catalytic Capital managed by a collaborative team at the American Heart Association and the Alliance of Bioversity CIAT that seeks to advance our fundamental understanding of food composition by providing tools, data, and training to scientists across the globe so they can better characterize the quality of the world's edible biodiversity.

The PTFI's ultimate goal is to advance data driven solutions in the food sector for the health of people and the planet. Funding for the PTFI is provided by the Rockefeller Foundation, the Foundation for Food and Agricultural Research, Seerave Foundation, Fourfold Foundation, and Atria Health Collaborative.

All right, Andy. Well, thanks so much for coming on this show. It's really great to meet you.

[00:02:47] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Totally welcome. Hi. Thanks. Good to meet you.

[00:02:50] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Yeah.

The Role of Bezos Earth Fund in Sustainable Agriculture

[00:02:51] Dr. Cassandra Quave: So maybe we can just start with a little bit of basic context about your current role with the Bezos Earth Fund. What is your role and kind of what is the mission of this initiative?

[00:03:01] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Oh, so at the, I've joined the Bezos Earth Fund. I've been here for about a year now. And so I'm the Director for the Future of Food for the part of the portfolio that looks at food in particular. And the Bezos Fund looks at things it's we're basically in this twin crisis of a biodiversity and nature crisis and a climate crisis, as well as all of them the challenges that we're having on the social and economic side as well across the planet, but we're looking at that at this kind of. We, we see ourselves in this, the middle of those two crises.

How do we address the nature crisis and the climate crisis and bring about catalytic change? And the food system is like, absolutely in the core of this. It's in the center of it. You know, it's a huge chunk of emissions globally.

It's you know, we talk about food as a victim of climate change. It's very much getting, you know, the farmers are out there on the front line. Food is the first thing, really, that is feeling the effects of climate, often. We have food as a problem. It's one third of global emissions. It's two thirds of ice free land is being used for food production.

I mean, it's, we like terraformed our planet, basically, for the food system. But it's also a solution to the climate and nature crisis. You know, I think, you know, food is the only sector where you can turn emissions around and actually sync, sync carbon into the soil and into the systems.

And so it's right at the core of many of the solutions to this. So, so, so what we're doing is we're looking at this is a very holistic thing. How do we feed 10 billion people within planetary boundaries and what needs to really change in the food system? And it's big change. It's transformative change.

It's not really just incremental little tweaks around the edges.

The Importance of Soil and Biodiversity in Agriculture

[00:04:40] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Yeah, I mean, when I think about some of the challenges that we face right now in agriculture, in the mention of terraforming, I mean, one of our challenges is the state of our soil, right? That we have challenges with the soil composition.

We also have challenges with access to land and we have challenges with the biodiversity Of organisms in our food systems. So which of these are you focused on most right now, or are there different programs kind of addressing all of these together in parallel?

The Complexity of the Food System

[00:05:11] Dr. Andy Jarvis: I mean, first of all, everything is connected in the food system. I always kind of talk about it. It's like this nebulous big fog of so much, so many things going on. It's very hard, you know, when people say, well, what is the food system? It's hard to answer that question. It's a really difficult one, you know, without spending 20 minutes doing it. But it's also, you know, I mean, the key thing is that everything is connected in the food system.

And so it's very hard to, you know, you can pick something here and you try and fix that there, but that has impacts just like in any complex system that has a whole range of that impacts elsewhere. So, so first of all, it's very hard to like. You know, just kind of tunnel vision. Just say, all right, we're going to fix this.

You have to think about the whole system and you have to think about it as a system and a system thinker, but find the leverage points.

The Importance of Sustainable Protein

[00:05:56] Dr. Andy Jarvis: And so, you know, one of the leverage points that we've certainly seen and where we're focused in on is an area that we call sustainable protein. You know, animal source foods for, you know, have for good and bad have the biggest footprint, be it emissions, a huge footprint in terms of emissions, 15 percent globally, we have, it's a huge footprint in terms of land.

So two thirds of the land that's used for the food system is for livestock or for feed for livestock. So it's, you know, the biggest chunk of land. But it's also this, I think the statistic is 1. 3 billion people on this planet, one way or another. depend on their on livestock for their livelihoods.

And so, you know, it's also a huge social an economic piece of the food system. So, so that's where we're kind of, particularly focused at the moment. What does The kind of protein and all of the other nutrients that are coming from the nutrition that comes from animal source foods.

What does that look like in the 21st century where we have 10 billion people growing population, increasing demand for meat every every day. And, you know, in certain regions like Africa, especially in Asia, huge population increase. As well and raising income. So the demand for meat is, you know, can be as much as double by 2050.

And so we've got to really think, what does that, what does this look like this century? How do we bring livestock and kind of all of the, and animal source foods into into a more sustainable space?

[00:07:27] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Do you think that's even possible? I mean, when I think about the growing human population and this desire for meat.

The Impact of Livestock on the Environment

[00:07:34] Dr. Cassandra Quave: I mean, even now, as we're trying to you know, concentrate our meat kind of cultivation or production systems, I'm thinking in particular of CAFOs where you have these concentrated feedlots, you know, these are really dependent upon the use of. Antibiotics and, you know, other things that are not great for us or the environment to be able to enable that kind of density of animals.

And if we're talking about growing that sector, you know, do you think that there is a path forward for sustainability with such a dense population and livestock? It's hard for me to see that just based on disease ecology. I don't know how we get around the disease aspect with such concentrated animal numbers.

[00:08:13] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Yeah, I mean, it's this is the classic cop out answer from any scientist. It depends.

The Future of Protein Sources

[00:08:18] Dr. Andy Jarvis: You know, and I think there is a path, there is a path, but it's multiple paths. You know, and I think, you know, the world is an incredibly diverse place. There are many different ways of producing meat and dairy and animal source foods.

And, you know, there's a kind of, there's a place for many of those systems in different contexts. You know, antimicrobial resistance, all of the kind of use of antibiotics out of control, especially in those feedlot systems. And, you know, and that's not good for human health.

That is not at all, you know, healthy. The, it's also not great for animal welfare or anything like that. I mean, you know, I think the inconvenient truth is they're actually very efficient as a kind of industrialized system of producing meat and dairy. It's actually very efficient. But it's it's not efficient in any other sense of the word.

And then it's not, I don't think acceptable in a 21st century. Developed human society. So, so I don't think you know, that's certainly not the answer, but there are ways of producing livestock in certain areas where you can have very high productivity, very good efficiency, low. I've been to farms, in fact, where you have cattle and it's with it's actually a carbon sink, a net carbon sink.

So you're gonna have you know, a thousand animals wandering around, but you know, you've got, so you've got trees involved. You've got deep rooting pastures and you can actually create a carbon sink from that. That's where you turn the food system around, you know, instead of being an emitter, it can be a sink.

So, you know, you can achieve those things in the right places, but, you know, the way we see it is it's kind of. You know, there's no silver bullet on this. There's no one single pathway. It's we kind of see it as an all of the above approach in the sense that we need to make livestock more sustainable, but we also need to be promoting plant rich diets.

And there's many things, many sources that we can get of proteins and many of the micronutrients that are in in, in, in beef and chicken. There are other sources for this that can be more sustainable, especially on plant rich diets. So, so there's a, we call it a kind of all of the above. Approach.

Let's make livestock more sustainable, but also let's double down on, on diets that are more diverse and and using vast majority, all of this diversity of plants that we can that, that have amazing nutrition.

[00:10:36] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Yeah. I like this idea of a plant forward diet where it's not eliminating meat, but it's really with plants, the centerpiece of the diet and meets more of.

You know, a flavoring or a side piece rather than the main course. And this is very common in many traditional diets too. It's where you have a very plant forward diet. What about insects? I have to ask this because I'm very curious about, you know, the role that intima Fiji can play down the road.

Have you guys touched on this at all? Of this idea of. Edible insects, both in livestock feed, but also for human nutrition.

[00:11:08] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Yeah, I mean, I've, I have been exploring the insect thing. I mean, I think you know, first of all, right now, most of the insects that are produced to go into pet food. So, you know, you're, some of your pets at home might be eating it.

A lot of it, that's really where it's worked, you know, generally speaking, but insects in Africa, for example, for, you know, large proportion of society, there is. Is a part of the diet. It's not a strange thing. I remember eating grasshoppers in Kampala once in Uganda and I guess for you know, western tastes it's a little bit gross when it's you know, the full insect.

It's actually quite tasty. I quite I quite liked it and it's so rich in protein but I think you can transform it in ways that you know, it is an incredibly efficient source of protein You know if you are going to you know per gram of protein produced. You can't really be insects in terms of the efficiency side of things.

But you know, I think you know, it's one part of the solution, but I don't think it's necessarily the big part of the solution.

The Role of Pulses in a Sustainable Diet

[00:12:02] Dr. Andy Jarvis: You know, I think I do think, you know, one of the things that we're quite passionate about is pulses as a, you know, from a plant forward perspective, pulses, very important.

Beans is How

[00:12:11] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Yeah. And you know, one of the things that we work on is this campaign called "Beans is How" and I don't know if you've come across beans is how, but it's I describe it as the answer to, you know, Life, The Universe and Everything else. How do I, you know, what should I eat to, you know, be more sustainable?

"Beans is How", you know, how as a farmer, what can I produce that's going to be nice to my soil? Well, "Beans is How" you know, it's kind of the it's no one likes to be told what they should eat you know, what they shouldn't eat. But it's a kind of no regret thing, you know, eat more beans and everyone nods and everyone looks like you guessed that right, you know, it's like, yeah, beans is a good thing.

So, we're trying to with this "Beans is How" can we double bean consumption across the planet by 2028. And that will have great benefits to planet on the sustainability side. It's good in many parts of the world. in, especially in western societies. It's a great, it's great for your pocket, the economics as well of it.

[00:13:02] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Absolutely.

[00:13:02] Dr. Andy Jarvis: They're cheap and they're nutritious and they're tasty. But it's also great for your health. You know, there is, it's a real no regret thing. Eat more beans and you're going to be getting much better and healthier guts. And you know, your gut health goes up and you're going to be full of great nutrition.

So, so the beans is is a good one. That's, that really, I think, needs to be at the center of. Of our plates in the future.

[00:13:23] Dr. Cassandra Quave: That's a great that's a great point. I mean, you also have enrichment of the soil through the nitrogen fixating bacteria grain on these beans and the root systems.

Are there particular types of beans that you all are looking into more so than others or just really any kind of bean?

[00:13:38] Dr. Andy Jarvis: We well, at least the campaign is looking at it as a kind of a loose sense. It's really pulses is how I mean, it doesn't have the same ring to it. Beans is how it kind of works, but it's really pulses, you know, so that's everything, you know, all the types of being common being mung bean and so on, but also chickpeas and lentils, you know, all of those things, they all share a very similar nutritional profile of being stack full of all sorts of goodness.

So, so it's a kind of general thing for pulses. How can we just eat more pulses? And what generally happens, you know, is as society as society has kind of developed, we've left those behind and instead eat eat more meat. And it's not necessarily, you know, and it's kind of replaced and drop the pulses.

So you know, pulses over the years has just gone down and down and down in consumption. And I think it's the wrong direction to travel and needs to go.

[00:14:29] Dr. Cassandra Quave: So when we think about, you know, other elements of the diet system or of our planetary health, as it ties into human health, we have pulses perhaps reduction in the amount of meat or more plant forward diets, but what other types of actions can folks take at home even as we're planning out our weekly menus based on the science?

Like, what does the science tell us? More pulses more plant forward, anything else we should be thinking about?

[00:14:57] Dr. Andy Jarvis: So I've I've thought about this quite a lot because I mean, you have to, it's a very abstract thing about the sustainability of the food system and you can explain all of the problems and some of the things you can do and you lose people very quickly, the, you know, the, for, you know, for anyone who just asked me what, you know, what, well, what do I, what should I do to be more sustainable and more healthy, you know, with what I eat, the first thing I say is kind of what's good for you is also generally good for the planet.

Yeah. There's very few exceptions to that rule. You know, so a lot of the good stuff that, you know, is you know, kind of known to be, you know, great for the human heart, human diet, pulses, you know, starting with things like pulses and you know, a lot of the kind of fiber rich crops and things, you know, what's, those are good for the Planet as well.

So that, you know, that's the first thing. It's not a trade off, right? So, you know, you can actually really just think about your own diet and eating good stuff And it's probably going to help the planet, you know, and that's smaller portions of meat. It's less consumption of red meat It's you know plant rich diets very diverse it's lots of fruit lots of vegetables which fruit and vegetables Generally, you can produce a lot of good stuff on much less land than cereals and so on.

So, you know, all of that is is simple. But what I kind of say is, you know, if I look out for three things, you know, one is don't waste your food, you know, it's you think one third of food is lost or wasted on the planet. And if you think about all of the big numbers from a planetary perspective, if it's one third of emissions globally, the food system.

So one third of that one third is. It's emissions produced for absolutely nothing because it gets thrown away. So, you know, the old thing of your mom telling you don't waste your food was you know, it was maybe, you know, for a different reason. But today, don't waste your food for the planet.

So that's, you know, that's one. It's just the land footprint as well. It's like, you know, if you reduce. loss of food loss and waste significantly, you free up so much land that can go back to nature that can be used for, you know, just, you know, to generate ecosystem services and all this kind of stuff.

Don't lose so don't waste your food. Second is choose your protein wisely. You know, that is really where the huge leverage of, you know, the difference between one plate of food and the other in terms of its carbon emissions is most likely defined by the kind of the protein on it. Is it beef most inefficient pork?

Well, I'll go in order like beef lamb. Pork, chicken, fish, and then way out over there. And then you got, you know, insects and pulses, you know, and so, you know, they're there, you know, that's really critical. And I mean, I was just this morning had a conversation about this idea of climate conscious catering.

And a team kind of took on the challenge and they went from, you know, kind of looking at a plate of food And trying to get it down to the minimum that basically provides all of the nutrition that you need And what they found is the difference between from where they started it was what was it seven seven kilos of carbon emissions per Plate of food down to half so you can Actually, you know, deliver all the nutrition that humans need with a tiny fraction of the emissions if you get it right.

So that's, so choose your protein wisely. That's the second. Then the third is kind of think about how it was produced. And that can make massive difference as well, you know, and there's, there are systems, you know, the crops that are produced in highly unsustainable ways. miles, which are not only, you know, screwing the climate and affecting nature, but doing all sorts of other stuff in terms of.

Pollution of rivers and so on. So how it is produced makes a big difference. And one of the myths that I always like to say to people is everyone gets worried about food miles and food miles are a tiny piece of it. They're there, you know, in a plate of food. The food miles is probably less than 2 percent of the emissions.

So, An apple produced efficiently in New Zealand. It's going to be much better for the planet to move that from New Zealand to California or to UK or whatever. Then an apple grown locally in inefficient, unsustainable ways. So the food miles are not important. So, so that's, those are the three, you know, how is it produced?

Choose your protein wisely and no food loss and waste.

[00:19:07] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Those are great points. I think it's difficult for consumers to really. Make those distinctions, right? To know, like, how do I understand what's going to be most sustainable or not? I was just in Brussels last week for work and there was a restaurant that had, you know, little symbols with each dish you could choose, like, based on its sustainability rating.

I thought that was kind of nice. I was like, this is a nice little guide. And of course, the more plant forward had the lowest of the... Of the kind of carbon imprints.

[00:19:36] Dr. Andy Jarvis: The thing is, I mean, they've done, they had experiments, especially in Amsterdam, things actually put, you know, just like you have the number of calories written on menus, they did also the carbon footprint written.

And they did experiments and they kind of, you know, researchers went in and kind of looked at choices and basically they came to the conclusion that no one was making choices based on that.

[00:19:57] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Okay. It's like, whatever you prefer to eat. Okay.

The Periodic Table of Food Initiative

[00:20:02] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Let's talk a little bit about food composition because this also relates to, you know, location and where it could be coming from in terms of like distance from harvest to consumption.

And I wanted to see if you could share with us a little bit about the periodic table of food initiative and why such an initiative is important to our understanding of both of how foods fit into this dynamic system of, you know, planetary and human health.

[00:20:28] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Yeah, great. And this was, you know, and this is really kind of from my previous life.

So in my previous life, in my previous role, which was at the Alliance of Biodiversity International in Seattle, it was we were, I helped kind of set up the Secretariat for the Periodic Table Of Food. And I must admit, it was like one of the, it was one of those. I worked on lots of projects and programs and stood a lot of things up.

This one was kind of my baby. I was really excited about it, you know, and I describe it kind of, you know, I think, first of all, we're on the cusp of a an absolute revolution in terms of understanding what is in food. You know, and all the food labeling that you'll see, you know, it talks about the amount of protein, the amount of carbohydrate, you know, you're lucky you get, you know, a few vitamins, you might get a little bit of iron or whatever in there.

But, you know, that is such a massive generalization of what you're actually eating. You know, and so, you know, I think we're on. Just because of the science right now, we're on the cusp of an absolute revolution in understanding what's in food, you know, I think that's super exciting. But the relevance of that I think is really important.

And you know, I mean, you know, one point I've kind of always made, you know, when we had all the, you know, the kind of the COVID vaccine and you had all of these people kind of, I won't name names, but you know, the anti vaxxers kind of arguing, I don't know what's in that. I'm not injecting it in my arm.

Every day. Yeah. You are consuming something and sticking it in your body and you have no idea what's in it. So, you know, that that argument just doesn't work, you know, and, you know, if you're really true to that and you don't, you know, you'll only put in your body what you know, stop eating because you have no idea what you're ingesting.

So, you know, I think we just we don't know what's going in and we don't know what that is doing to our body. And I think, you know, the, this combination of it. First of all, a revolution in the food composition understanding all of these compounds that are in there and being able to actually identify them and name them together with understanding then what that does in terms of human health and how, you know, all of the things that it can do, the relevance of it is I can go into some of the details of how this, you know, what impacts it could have.

But I think, you know, it's going to be fascinating. We can really think about our diets as, You know, in a much more kind of precise way of how to, you know, it's, it goes for everything just from, you know, kind of Food as medicine through to understanding also going backwards in the food system and understanding how different production techniques change the food composition and how that different food composition affects the body.

So all that, you know, all those, you know, antibiotics that you're consuming from feedlot animals in, you know, in, in these intensive feed systems. We're going to start to understand, well, what is the trace of those things? How are they moving through the food system? How are you with ingesting them?

What are they doing to your human health? And you know, in the short term, in the medium term, long term. So, that's the periodic table of food. I think it's it's It's at the right time where the technology is going to get us there in terms of understanding it, and then it'll just open up so many doors, you know, it'll be researchers that, you know, can spend the next 40 years going through this data.

[00:23:28] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Now, I'm really excited about it is like you said, it's really putting some science behind not just crop yield with, for example, with regenerative agriculture, but really, like, what are the health values? of these foods following different forms of agriculture. And how does that translate into our health outcomes?

I think that's really exciting. And I'm wondering, I mean, do you have any examples of, you know, where you might see that data being used, or any kind of more specific ways that it could be used that you could share with us, or how this might tie into the larger picture with the Bezos Fund?

[00:24:06] Dr. Andy Jarvis: I mean, well, the, we've thought about the kind of the relevance of this PTFI in a few contexts, you know, I mean, one is, one is going back to farming practices and we don't understand, you know, everyone, you know, we kind of, you know, people eat organic food and we talk about regenerative ag and, you know, there's kind of, you know, everything from, you know, very good production practices through to very bad ones.

We don't really, have a good grip of what that means in terms of, you know, when you eat it, what it does to you. So, you know, that's one, I think it can really inform what, you know, not only what is kind of good production from a perspective of the you know, sustainability or. Equity in the foods in the production system or be it you know, animal welfare or whatever, you know, that was what we were looking at before.

But now we can track the relevance of that all the way through to human health. And, you know, it was always a kind of giant leap of faith that if we, you know, organic and we eat less, you know, less chemicals in our food and things, it's going to be better for us. But you know, there's Very poor kind of evidence of exactly what those chemicals are doing to us.

And they're chipping away. I'm sure they're chipping away at human health, but we don't really understand how it is. So, you know, I think that's something that's one that's interesting. I mean, the other things is I always use the example of the pandemic. In the pandemic, I kind of felt like I got so in tune with what I was eating that it was it blew my mind in the sense that I could Because I was, you know, I was just at home and we were, you know, we were doing cooking every day, our own food.

And I was sourcing, you know, from a local farmer, the products, the produce and stuff, you know, I kind of knew everything that was. I knew what we were doing to it. And then I was eating and I wasn't going out. And you know, and I felt I eat something and you could feel like the effect on your brain on lethargy or, you know, certain things would make you kind of just like, you know, be on it.

Other ones would be like, you'd be tired after eating it in the afternoon and it, you became so much more tuned to it. And I think a lot of people went through that during the pandemic. And. You kind of lose it when you start eating out and you kind of start just messing, you know, kind of being more, eating more for convenience but but that's happening every day.

And I always use the example, when I was little I, when I was doing exams someone told me that eat a banana. Before an exam, because you'd be smarter. I had no idea. It's just like, eat a banana and you'd be smarter. You know, it sounded like a good idea, so I'd always eat a banana. But now, you know, I mean, you can really understand how eating that banana stimulates the brain.

What does it do in your body? And what compounds are in there? And how are they doing that? So, you know, I think that's the level of understanding we're going to get. How individual foods... Can be kind of stimulating all sorts of things in your body for good and bad, but also how diets and, you know, plates and combinations of things can be.

So I think, you know, we're going to create, it's going to be this whole kind of new awareness, basically, of the role of food and human health and and also the planetary side of things, sustainability.

[00:27:08] Dr. Cassandra Quave: It's amazing. No, I love this idea of mindful eating. And I think you're a hundred percent right.

That many of us unintentionally just out of being forced to, you know, cook at home during the pandemic really learned to have a different relationship with our food and the way it makes us feel. And I love that analogy. It's really about getting the science behind and understanding the chemistry and pharmacology of our foods.

To better appreciate why we feel the way we do after eating certain things. That's really, I think, an exciting part of the future of food.

The Bezos Earth Fund's Commitment to Transforming Agricultural and Food Systems

[00:27:38] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Well, speaking of the future of food, I was reading on the Bezos Earth Fund website that this fund has committed a billion dollars to transforming kind of agricultural and food systems.

And I'm, I mean, that's an incredible amount. And I think that's really exciting and it opens up. You know, many potential pathways to kind of pursue this line of inquiry, and I'm wondering, what can you share with us about the types of projects that the fund is currently working with? You know, what types of things are happening?

Are these happening across the globe? Are these projects primarily farmers or with chefs or kind of what's within the scope of this overall mission?

[00:28:22] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Oh, great. Yeah, I love talking about this. So, I mean, as I explained at the start, I mean, we're looking at this And a nexus of climate and nature and the food system right in the mix of that.

So, I mean, we're looking at how can we reduce the emissions? How can we free up land for more nature? How can we basically produce good, nutritious food for 10 billion people on less land with lower emissions? That's, it's simple. But, you know, I think that, you know, the. The program that we're developing in this is everything from quite upstream R and D.

You know, I think real innovations and technologies that are gonna you know, make a big difference. As I said, I think, you know, the changes that we need to make are not little tweaks. We're not gonna, we're not going to reach, you know, kind of, You know a sustainable food system by just tweaking around the edges.

We really need to actually fundamentally change it And so so we're working kind of on innovations kind of upstream r& d and things like that But then going all the way, you know downstream on the ground, you know, what does good practice farming practice look like? You know what how you know, what should we be designing in terms of a food system delivering your protein for 10 billion people.

You know how, what's the mix between plants and and animals in this so we're looking kind of a, you know, quite broadly at things. You know, some examples of what we do is we provide grants generally to either research organizations or not for profit. Organizations in civil society working towards these these outcomes.

An example, you know, on a kind of more upstream side of things, for example, we've got working on colors for cows. So one of our grants was to Cornell University, and that's about a color that can go on cows that will kind of help them train them through sounds, through vibrations, Transcribed to not need fencing.

So what we can do is introduce rotation for cows so that they, you know, if we've got a hundred hectare farm, you know, this, you know, this day, the cows are in this. Two hectares next day, they're in that and so on. And it's the color that is controlling that. So you don't have to cut down fence posts.

You don't have to be using electric fences and all of this, which is costly. And especially in areas which are very extensive and generally the most inefficient production systems. How can we introduce this as a technology that will increase the sustainability of those systems.

So that's the kind of example of, you know, the quite upstream work. We're also looking at things like practice standards with in the U. S., for example, farms get practice standards of, To access federal funds. And so we're working in the kind of the policy space with, you know, how can we improve those practice standards to be incentivizing the best practice on the farm that is going to be delivering, you know, high quality products, profitability for farmers, but also sustainability.

And and it's, we're just getting going. I'm one year in, and we're just rolling a lot of this out. The commitment is 1 billion by 2030. And and so, yeah, we're going to build up a beautiful portfolio of all sorts of things. And I think, you know, at the center of this, and this is where it relates back to PTFI.

You know, one of the centers of this is really around the protein challenge of how do you... How you know what? If every, you know, person on the planet like the average, you know, European or Brazilian or Argentinian or American with massively high consumption of meat, we'd run out of planet tomorrow, right?

I mean, there's no way we just can't sustain that. And so, you know, we're interested in thinking, well, what, you know, what is the right mix of Meat animal sourced foods. Where should we be producing those with plant rich alternatives? And also, we're interested in the space of kind of plant based meats and the kind of alternative protein space as well.

You know, there's people that will, you know, eat meat, always will eat meat, will, you know, couldn't ever kind of consider not eating meat. And so we need to provide choices. So it's really about developing more choices for consumers that are more sustainable.

[00:32:22] Dr. Cassandra Quave: That's fascinating. I mean, it's, that's incredibly exciting that this is such an ambitious project.

I mean, that's seven years to spend 1 billion in pushing the future of food rapidly forward. I think that's really a tremendous opportunity to do a lot of exciting work. And I like the idea of the remote, I guess not remote controlled cows, but almost in a way, because you're using these collars to help herd and better manage your your herds that way.

The Future of Fisheries

[00:32:48] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Well, one other question, I know we've talked about land based proteins in terms of both livestock and plant protein. What about our fisheries? The oceans are also in a state of crisis, as I'm sure you all know, and our management of marine sites also presents a challenge. Is that also something that you're kind of keeping in mind when you're thinking about these systems approaches?

[00:33:14] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Yeah, it's a really tough one. The issue, I mean, the whole issue of blue foods, right? I mean, you know, first of all, you know, fish, incredibly valuable from a nutritional perspective, you know, the kind of, you know, we should be eating more fish, but we don't have a great diet. Yeah. Track record of production, of fishery, you know, fisheries, be it aquaculture or be it, you know, in, in our oceans.

We don't have a great track record of being sustainable on that, you know, and so it's actually, you know, when you dig into it, you know, like salmon, you know, salmon is, you know, is like a wonder food in the sense of all of the, you know, the oils and the you know, the omegas and all of the, from a composition perspective, it's fantastic for human diet, right?

But when you start looking, you know, going into what's in that and a lot of experts, anyone, many experts really actually that, you know, have gone into this, don't eat salmon, you know, despite it being so, you know, kind of nutritionally great, it's, you know, generally there's all sorts of problems again with antibiotics and...

[00:34:13] Dr. Cassandra Quave: oh, it's with farm salmon or with wild salmon,

[00:34:17] Dr. Andy Jarvis: ...yeah, wild salmon. Yeah, you've got other kind of questions of, you know, ecosystem integrity and you know, are they being sustainably harvested and so on and so forth. So, so it's a tough one. Blue Foods is It's a critical piece of the food system, but it's one just littered with kind of conflicts and trade offs and and difficulty.

So, you know, I think it's an area that, you know, we the the Earth Fund, one of the things we're kind of. We've been doing, for example, in the eastern tropical pacific has been working on protected areas. How do we create much bigger protected areas in our oceans? Protect, you know, in marine protected areas.

And one of the things that it shows is actually is interesting is, you know, when you The analysis is like, I think there was one great study in Hawaii, which basically showed that by establishing a protected area, the profitability and the, well, the, you know, first of all, the sustainability of the system and, you know, protection of marine life goes up, but at the same time for the fishermen.

And you know, the fisher folk and so on, the people that depend on the sea for their livelihoods also actually enhance their their income and their livelihoods because we were protecting stocks and you had, you know, you basically, the catches were bigger and better around those protected areas.

So, so I think, you know, one of the things is we've just got to bring into harmony the, this is where really, you know, where we look at. Protection, restoration and transforming our food, the three things that we look at in our nature portfolio, those three together in oceans can actually be very beneficial.

[00:35:50] Dr. Cassandra Quave: Now, that's such a great point. I think there has to be you know, to be successful, we have to have this very holistic approach. That's, you know, multifactorial and how we go about these things. I mean, would you say, Andy?

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

[00:36:03] Dr. Cassandra Quave: We're burning low on time, so I just want to wrap up with, you know, kind of one last bigger vision question, you know, in the news, we're constantly bombarded with bad things, you know, bad news about climate change, bad news about our food systems, you know, as a scientist and as someone that's kind of, directing these new initiatives and how do we address these changes?

Do you find yourself optimistic or pessimistic about our future of kind of where do you stand? And, you know, What nuggets of wisdom can you share there?

[00:36:33] Dr. Andy Jarvis: It depends what side of the bed I go to in the morning, I think. I, you know, I go from another podcast that I love to watch is Outrage and Optimism, and I think that captures the kind of the schizophrenia that you feel, you know.

On the one hand, I mean, it is, You know, as you know, my backgrounds in geography and I understand kind of Earth systems and so on. And I mean, we're on the we're really are on the edge of many of these systems of complete collapses of tipping points in the climate system. What happens in the next five to seven years is really going to be absolutely critical.

This is we call it the decisive decade. You know, I mean, if we don't take it seriously there's no coming back from what we're going to face in terms of climate change and the nature crisis. So, you know, in that sense, yeah, it's pretty scary. You know, in the food system. I mean, as I said, you see technologies and you see what's around the corner, the capacity of humans to innovate is.

Incredible. And if we really do focus that energy on that innovation capacity on the right things, and we really do strive instead of striving for kind of a race to the bottom of how do you provide the cheapest kind of worst food to, to people, you know, with the worst methods, right.

But, you know, it's very much been a drive of economy of just, you know, the cheaper, the better, the more efficient. And that's gone against planetary health. And also human health. And I think if we rebalance that and we use our innovation to think about a much more balanced view of that, I am very hopeful.

And it is, you know, it is incredible how much has changed in the food system. If you just look at the massive transformations, the changes that have happened in the last 40 years, we can transform them again, but it really does need concerted effort. Yeah. So, so, I mean, that's why from, you know, from my role, having, you know, This commitment of 1 billion by 2030 on transforming food systems.

It's super exciting because there is so much we can do and so much we need to do. It's also terrifying because because we, you know, this is really, I mean, it's we're talking huge responsibility that not just, you know, us with, you know, the Bezos Fund, but everyone working in the food system, huge responsibility to really rethink and be bold and be brave about what needs to change.

[00:38:48] Dr. Cassandra Quave: I love that. We have to be bold and we have to be brave. Thank you, Andy, for sharing these insights. This was really interesting and inspirational. I appreciate you coming on the show.

[00:38:58] Dr. Andy Jarvis: Thanks so much for having me. Yeah.

[00:39:00] Dr. Cassandra Quave: All right. You've been listening to Foodie Pharmacology, the Science Podcast for the Food Curious.

You can find this and all of our other episodes on our website at foodiepharmacology.com. You can also find the full video version of this episode at the teach as no, but not. Teach Ethnobotany YouTube channel. Thanks so much for listening.

I also want to send a shout out of thanks to our producers, to Rob Cohen and Christine Roth for putting on a great show.

And thanks to you, our listeners, for tuning in each week. Stay healthy out there and I'll see you next time.